Marty Leeds | Flat Earth Implications, NASA Lies, & Gematria

Show Notes


One of the most controversial and polarizing topics even among the conspiracy community is that of flat earth theory. Most people think the entire topic is ludicrous, but you can’t argue that it’s gaining steam with a certain subset of alternative thinkers. Well, today’s guest, Marty Leeds, has considered the matter quiet extensively, and has found that the flat earth theory might have some validity.

Marty is a researcher, author and musician. He is a proponent of the flat earth theory, a mathemagician, and expert decoder of  gematria, which focuses on number patterns in the English language. Marty has a lot of interesting thoughts on the universe, NASA and space exploration, and how the ancient civilizations expressed their knowledge of the earth being flat.

Some of the topics that you’ll hear about today include:

6:15: The Egyptians, Hindus, Mayans and other ancient cultures believed that the earth was flat. Since it’s widely accepted that they were very advanced societies, Marty asserts, there’s no reason to disbelieve them on the shape of the earth.

12:45: Evidence that NASA is lying to the public about everything from the existence of the Hubble telescope to the moon landing for the sake of mass propaganda and a way to funnel money into their corrupt organization.

19:00: Marty’s thoughts on Copernicus, Galileo, and other “enlightened” heliocentrists. He even has some evidence that Pythagoras may never have existed at all.

25:50: Information on gematria and how it sheds light on NASA and the flat earth theory.

34:50: Marty’s thoughts on the International Space Station. There is evidence that the ISS is a hologram, Marty says, and this explains why people can see it from the earth despite it being a hoax.

45:40: How Marty’s journey has affected his thoughts on the existence of a Creator. He believes that man is put on this earth to find something that is hidden or lost.

54:10: Why the Bible is highly symbolic and cryptic, and where to find the clues that prove Biblically that the world is flat.

1:02:40: How a nearly universal dislike of math is part of the indoctrination designed to hide the patterns and numbers of the universe from children.

1:09:00: Marty’s thoughts on Neil deGrasse Tyson, who debunked the conspiracy that the moon landing was falsified.

1:21:40: Why the arctic and antarctic regions of the flat earth are largely inaccessible, as well as information on where they are located on the flat disk.

1:29:40: How the number 7 encodes the sun and the moon, and why the government finds it necessary to withhold this information from school children.

1:38:15: Marty’s skeptical thoughts on UFOs and alien abduction. Although he witnessed a UFO, he does not believe that it was necessarily extraterrestrial, and he explains why.


Marty’s website

Marty on YouTube

Marty on Facebook

Previous flat earth theory episode with Eric Dubay

Flat Earth: The Ultimate Litmus Test

Pole to Pole BBC Documentary


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106 Responses

  1. 1.It’s OBVIOUSLY NOT flat. The FE have no plausible explanation for time zones, not even close. Do they have an explanation for the trade winds? Can they explain the jest stream?

    2. Ancient cultures belief the earth is flat? Do they now?

    3. Obvious bullying that comes from so many of the FE crowd. And I have to wonder about the truther “celebrities” who promote it.

    1. Time zones are the easiest to explain. Like Marty said, search YouTube for the model. “Time zones explained flat earth”. If you see the path they are said to take, then Understanding is made simpler. You say impossible, I say simple. It’s up to you to look it up. Since you don’t care to understand or study it, that does not make me crazy, it just makes you lazy. Type in 5 words on YouTube and spend 5 minutes. How can you claim something when you do not understand it.

      Also, just in general conversation, Greg made few comments about the ISS, but as you all may know, it’s all a pool. The past Chinese, Russian and American space walks have been broken down to easily show air bubbles. They just film it in a pool. A scuba diver is seen swimming in the Chinese space walk.

    2. Trade winds and jet stream. lol. It’s not a spinning ball. Some of the strongest winds on earth are from tornadoes. How are they formed. Heating and cooling? Heat rises and cold drops? Air can be quickly heated and cooled. When it’s heated or cooled the particles expand and contract. The air moves to replace the space left by the contraction and when you feel that against your skin, you call it wind.

        1. Cold at the “poles” warmer in the middle. As the sun goes through its ecliptic it heats the center and the battle between warn air and cold ensues. I don’t think the earth has to be spinning to answer all these phenomena. It seems to me there is more proof we are not spinning. All I know is our earth, it’s shape and place in whatever this reality is has been mis described. So it’s fun to be babes in the woods and shake off all the Jesuit NASA programming and start a fresh.

          1. Everything is in relative motion. Everything must also have a relative centre about which it moves. Even an apparent spinning body is moving about another more remote centre, therefore true motion would be more of a spiral.
            The idea of static form implies fundamental inertia or the dead atom. An impossibility for consciousness to be capable of contemplating without entering into delusional self negation.

    3. Obviously not flat? Yup, sure seems flat to me. What the earth feels like and what it actually is are two different things. Intuitively it is flat, and we all accepted that until we were taught otherwise. Human’s are so malleable, think about why you believe anything. Wake up from your sleepwalk.

      1. My apologies George. I have seemed to place my response in the incorrect area as it was designated for another comment. Great response and I agree with you 100%.

  2. great show and great guest Gregg – I find it far more compelling and credible when evidence is presented rather than anecdotal stories and speculative narratives that sometimes shelters under the umbrella of alternative media. Refreshing and thought provoking. Cheers

  3. Oh dear. I haven’t yet pushed Play but my head is hurting already. It’s either goina get squeezed or it’ll grow. Always room for growth. If I could just get that pointy bit to stop being so high. But it IS kinda handy for helping to keep my hat on in a strong wind. Gee. Wonder if these FEers think there’s a giant Fan blowin on our page Earth. Hmmm… I’ll just have to listen.

    1. Ok! My head has both expanded and contracted. I believe that matter is MAYA~ illusion. Who knows what the mechinism truly is? But I’m with Marty all the way. IT DOESNT MATTER!! We humans are here on the Earth School to learn LOVE and TO Love. The reason is sucks so bad is because so many of us have completely forgotten our Mission.

  4. So I’ve been a plus member for going on almost 2 years now, I remember signing up just so I could listen to the extended episode with Eric Dubay. The flat earth has always been one topic that I’ve entertained so much in my head. While I give more credibility to a hollow earth, the flat earth has still definitely caught my interest. It’s a weird feeling though, I don’t want to talk to any of my friends about it because they would more than likely think I’m more of a joke than they already do. But I stick to what I like to call the Socrates mindset- that is “The wisest man is he who claims that he knows nothing”
    I entertain many ideas but try not to stay too glued to just one. Great show Greg, you da man!

  5. Greg, I like martyleeds33. I appreciate he believes this…subject. So occult manipulations and holographic illusions hide the earthshattering news that the earth is really flat or sort of, in a way. Nope. I don’t buy his ideas today. This doesn’t mean that if some smart folks find something, who knows? Now my process to this is simple, at least for myself. The same quote martyleeds33 has at the beginning of his video by Herbert Spencer, the “contempt prior to investigation”i.e. open my mind, and just set aside my preconceived bullshit. And still, for now, nope. now his ideas on paths, quests, tests is strong. Bless you both. I love you guys for talking truth, talking shit, just talking. Hell, i’m high Greg so farewell…dsincere

  6. Well I listened to Dubay and checked out some of the FE youtube videos. I decided
    I needed to check out this FE theory for myself. While vacationing in upstate NY on the shore
    of lake Ontario I set up my telephoto lens to shoot Toronto and low and behold about half the skyline
    was well below the horizon. Well that confirms for me that the earth is curved and is most likely what it appears to be – ROUND. I just don’t see how the FE theory makes any sense considering all the amateur astronomers, sailors, aviators, commercial aircraft, cartographers, etc. But, something is still not right here considering NASA’s deception.

    I’m absolutely certain that the Apollo imagery we were shown was shot on a film set most likely by Kubrick. But why? Is it just a cover for the zero point anti gravity technology that the Elite don’t want to release or is it something more? If we’re in a simulation we may not be able to travel beyond low Earth orbit. We also may be in some sort of quarantine by a more advanced civilization along with the entities that live below. I think the truth is a bit more complicated than just a flat Earth with a dome but that might be a good simple analogy for what the ancients believed. The moon is most certainly a part of the control system in play here. In the Mahabharata the soul journeys to the moon after death and either continues on towards the heavens or goes to the dark side to be reincarnated on Earth. It’s possible that if a majority of us discover the truth of a simulation or we advance enough to break the quarantine then a reset might be in order (tower of Babel, great flood). And that is one reason why there is probably so much dis-information out there. Those in the know can’t be sure where the red line is…

      1. See how this prism bends a ray of light?

        Light is refracted when it travels through substances of varying density.

        The earth’s atmosphere does the same thing as this prism – especially over sea where there is a steep temperature gradient.

        Notice the wavy light on the hot hood of your car or on a hot road? That is light being bent as it travels through different temps/densities of air. Sometimes the refraction is so extreme in a hot desert an inversion takes place and you see an upside down horizon and this is called a mirage. Over the pacific or other bodies of water that are cooler than the air, light bends the other way because of the cold water cooling the air nearby making it more dense like the dense prism. This enables you to see further than you could without atmospheric distortion.

        At any rate, you can tell very little about curvature from sloppy experiments like the one linked.

      2. 7.71 miles is hardly enough distance to get an accurate reading.
        My test picture was taken from near Olcott NY, 40 miles or 64000 meters from Toronto. Using a Sagitta calculator
        the length of displacement would be 107 meters. This was almost exactly the figure I got when I used the height of the First Canadian Place Tower in Toronto which is 298 meters to measure the displacement. Please refer to this blog post
        for pictures that illustrate how Toronto looks from 50 kilometers out on the water:

        I think this debate was settled over 500 years ago and it seems a little silly that it is being resurrected now. But people should go out and do the research for themselves. The shore of lake Ontario in NY is beautiful. Go out this Summer and take a camera with a telephoto lens. Then, you will find out the truth for your self.

  7. I didn’t realize Marty has turned towards the Flat Earth theory. I don’t think we know everything about this living space but it has been difficult for me to swallow the Flat Earth subject, even after researching, listening to dozens of interviews on the subject and keeping an open mind. There are only very few points that make me ponder the implications of the few points that are brought up… the rest is lack of the realization of the size of the planet and lack of knowledge of the science involved. There is just enough to keep me interested, open minded and curious. Lets see if Marty can push me a bit further to the Flat Earth side. I’m looking forward to the interview.

    1. (chuckle) When you think about it, being told from day one in school that we live on a spinning ball is what’s difficult to swallow. Keep up your research on the stationary plane on which we live, peace! Btw, what is your opinion after absorbing the information received from this podcast?

      1. Although i am suspecious of anything we are taught as an absolute fact in our indoctrinated society of deceits and partial truths, to me personally, does not constitute the thought that because of the fact that we are force fed a ball Earth spinning through space that it must mean that it must be the opposite is true that we live on a stationary flat plane.

        I am not saying that the flat and stationary plane is not possible or that I believe that the globe version is correct, I’m just saying that the model they tell us has flaws but that there usnt enough logical information to convince me the current FlatEarth models are convincing enough.

        I think its suspicious that Flat Earth has gotten so much attention and think it could be a distraction so that we spendtime trying to find a solution to the anomalies in the globe model with a flat earth model instead of looking to what they are hiding from us. The sun and moon sizes, perceived aspects globally, paths and energies doesn’t fit into any flat earth models without theories that are too far fetched to me with my current understanding. I am open to other explanations to reality to make the theory fit but I feel we shouldn’t hang our hat on one theory to explain the anomalies, instead, we should look at ALL of the information AND anomalies and base a theory on them.

        So without more information that proves the flat earth theory, a model that fits all of perceived facts and anomalies or my understanding of everything changes I can neither completely dismiss flat earth theory nor can I jump on the flat earth band wagon. But, I will continue to ponder a model that fits my current understanding, known anomalous information and personal perceptions using logic, an open mind and critical thinking skills.

        1. In other words, you’re not sure. I agree with you, I’m not either.

          “I think its suspicious that Flat Earth has gotten so much attention and think it could be a distraction so that we spendtime trying to find a solution to the anomalies in the globe model with a flat earth model instead of looking to what they are hiding from us.”

          The FE debate as a distraction is very probable, imo. Also, there are a lot of theories out there but many (not all) FE’rs get really pissed off if you don’t immediately jump on the bandwagon. For some reason there is a playground bully mentality that has surrounded this theory from the beginning and that also makes me suspicious.

          I like Marty Leeds and I think gematria is fascinating. FE, not so much. I just don’t think the shape of the earth is that big of a deal other than, if the earth is really flat, they lied to us. At this point being lied to should surprise no one.

          1. Flat Earthers get pissed off because merely bringing up the topic they are called every shit name in the book. At first I was polite to the ball fuckers but now if they start in with insults and not even looking at the mountains of flat earth evidence I let them have it with both barrels. I have used every curse and swear word plus a few I made up lol. Having said that, since listening to Marty mention that it’s better to stay calm in the shit storm from the ball bastards I have cooled my tone a bit but it is hard being polite to a fuck wad that is not even looking at the data and calling me/us retards. If I could put my fist through the screen and reach the pricks I certainly would.
            Ahhhhhh that felt good, sorry for the rant.

        2. Have to start by saying I do not know anything other than what I have personally ally observed, which are flat areas, mountains, valleys ect.. I am only a ground-level landscape eyewitness.
          You are correct that we should gather the data then build a model. The problem is that no one person has ALL the data and we can’t fight the tendency to mentally build models based off the data or information we have. We do this unconsciously with everything in life. We build models of who another person is, but that is not who they are, it’s only who they are to us, based on our experience with them and what we conjure them to be for the efficiency of interacting with life and everything in it. We do not see what things ARE, only what we perceive them to be. We each live in an illusion filled with models or ideas, which we created ourselves, or accepted from someone else. Or a mix between. Acceptance with our own spin.
          The mark of a wise man is being able to entertain an idea without attachment. (Not gonna pretend I remember who said something to that effect. But I just said it because I heard it, accepted it, and repeated it in my own words. It’s what we do)
          Anyway, we build a model based on the data we have. Someone else says “hey, what about this…?” We have the option to accept it into our data and reshape our model, ignore it, or fight to hold our model together. Life is like a puzzle in which we tend to try to make pieces fit somewhere where they “almost” fit, but not quite. We do this so we can have some sort of picture, although it’s slightly distorted.
          Point being anyone can make their ideas seem credible from the data they have/use to present it. We just need to make sure we are not “defending” a belief, and instead, looking for truth, or Atleast more data. I think Marty presented his case well, as well as the data he has. We can check that data, use what we can with other data and keep doing that before we build a model. Then adjust the model when/as needed. We don’t have to have an opinion right now. We can just accept or reject data. I’ve gone on long enough. Lol.
          -cheers to everyone here for caring enough to think, regardless of your stance.

  8. Congrats on the engagement, Greg!

    I think we can all agree a balanced amount of skepticism is good. Skepticism means not holding on to conclusions too tightly. However, what I see in FE is intellectual laziness or ignorance presented as “skepticism”. Science is about first of all gathering data, then forming a hypothesis (tentative model), making predictions based on that model, then conducting experiments to see if those predictions come true. If the predictions of the model pan out as expected, then we assign more confidence to the model.

    Flat Earth isn’t science. Flat Earth starts with a conclusion and then looks for evidence to support that conclusion. The only “evidence” presented is in the form of questions. Questions are not data. I turned off Eric Dubay shortly after he asked why trains and planes don’t go uphill and then downhill. That question is not evidence. It only demonstrates his obscene ignorance of the spherical model. In this interview Marty said something like “how do metals even exist at 17,500 mph?” That’s not evidence for anything. It’s an argument from incredulity which is a fallacy.

    Can anyone point to a prediction made based on the flat earth model that was confirmed through experimentation?

    I love asking questions about everything. That’s why I’m here. But asking questions alone is not a substitute for data and experimentation.

    Why does this topic get people emotional? 1) people have defense mechanisms to defend their paradigms. 2) telling people they’ve been duped about something so fundamental is an insult to their intelligence. 3) people get angry at intellectual laziness and ignorance. 4) people enjoy feeling smarter than someone else, and since it is so easy to smash FE in a debate this gives them an opportunity to put someone else down and feel better about themselves.

    Regarding the moon landings: I’m about 95% sure they were faked. NASA lost all the original data? Yeah right. Yes NASA has ties to the occult, Jack Parsons and JPL, operation paper clip and all that. Yes they effectively serve martial and propaganda purposes. But I don’t think every single thing they’ve done (or the other space agencies around the globe) was a lie. It’s warfare, so it’s a mixture.

    Astronauts in orbit? I’m an engineer don’t know of any reason why that wouldn’t work and I can watch satellites fly by and track them on my phone and my phone knows where I am within a few feet thanks to its GPS, we zip all around the earth on hi tech airplanes, so yeah, I accept it at face value that we’ve gone into low earth orbit.

    Yes Obama’s birth certificate was obviously made to appear fake. Probably a big FU from Obama and a diversion to hide the fact his real father was Frank Marshall Davis

    I’ve also wondered whether Steven Hawking isn’t just the perfect establishment controlled mouthpiece of “science”.

    I do find it interesting if what Marty said is true: that there’s no video of the ISS being launched or assembled.

    He mentioned antarctic video of the sun never setting would falsify the FE hypothesis… Okay, well why does the sunset or rise at all in FE? Much less why does the sun’s arc through the sky vary predictably with latitude? We can predict the sun’s arcs based on the globe model. Yes old cultures had the FE model because that is the intuitive perspective based on the observer, but they explained the sun’s behavior with myths rather than formulas. Those myths told us deep truths because any author is going to put deeper truths into his story, because that’s what we really want. But that doesn’t make the myth literally true.

    Anyway, I like Marty’s syncretism and gematria and spirituality and sacred geometry studies which I connect with on a right brain level, and I hope he gets the time to do some more research on the answers to his questions about the globe model.

  9. I can’t wait to hear this one, especially since I already know that I will enjoy hearing what Marty has been up to. From hearing him on previous podcasts, I get the sense thst he’s a genuine spiritual truth seeker, intelligent, and a nice guy. I’m saving this one for morning motivation and the work commute, thanks again Greg!

  10. Went to Kennedy Space center this past weekend with my family and while I kept an open mind, it truly did feel like an “Americas the best so of course we did all this” kind of vibe. There was a whole lot on why but not how and as far as I was concerned the why is already questionable. We got to listen to an astronaut who had been up on the ISS 4 times and while I could understand doing talks like this could get quite repetitive (as well as going into space could get repetitive) she didn’t really seem to have much to say about how being in space was as an experience. Like Marty says I don’t know and I wasn’t there. For the rockets I remember my father saying “what a great feat of engineering” and honestly to everything that went into those rockets even if it was just for public display is truly that. Just like the bus driver for the tour of the launch pads he believed in what he was saying. You guys know how it is, but if anything it confirmed to me that it really could all just be bullshit to certain degrees, and how easy it is to sell a public whatever needs to be shown.

  11. Sweet, been getting really into Flat Earth at the moment. I’m not a convert, but I find the whole thing fascinating and love getting all the tiny details. Should be a good listen; hearing Marty’s reasons for changing his mind.

  12. Listen people. Let’s just cut the bullshit and think. Aristotle said, so they say, the mark of an educated mind is to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it. One of the beads of this flat earth thing is division. To capture weak minds and capitulate them into a egoic frenzy of dualistic chicanery. Neil Degrass Tyson is dropping microphones and saying the earth is round bitch. Zero intellectual rebutt only mockery. He said it pear shaped yet the NASA cartoons are perfectly round. Long story short. Great show and great guest. Fascinating and engaging topic. Renewed my sub because of it.

    1. The earth is mostly spherical. If it were shrunk down small enough to fit in your hand it would appear to the eye to be a perfect smooth sphere. Since it does about one full turn per day, the surface at the equator is traveling about 1040 mph or 465 m/s. Radial acceleration = V^2/R. Radius of earth is about 6.37 million meters. 465^2/6.37E6 = .034m/s^2
      Average gravitational acceleration at earth’s surface is about 9.81m/s^2. At the equator you would take gravitational acceleration and subtract radial acceleration to get 9.81-.034= 9.78.


      So at the equator there is about 99.7% less down force on the earth’s crust which is why it bulges ever so slightly at the equator. The equatorial radius divided by polar radius in meters is 6.378E6/6.357E6*100%= 100.3%

      So since the equator crust has about 99.7% of the down force it bulges out about 100.3%. It’s still pretty damn round. The “pear shaped” feature mentioned is on an even smaller order of magnitude.

      Like I said, if you could hold the earth in your hand it would seem like a perfect sphere as these bulges that make the earth a not quite perfect sphere (oblate spheroid) are very very slight.

      1. Neil Degrassy said it was bulged below the equator not at the equator. All this fancy math isn’t my bag I go by what I know and feel in real life everyday experience. They say we are spinning yet you never feel anything ever and the answer to this is relativity and gravity of which both are theories. I have also lost a lot of respect for Einsteinian anything because he was a plagiarist and his theories don’t match observable phenomenon. Not to mention the fake everything NASA does has a Hollywood texture to it so I’m not taking any data from them. I think Tesla was the guy, aether. They buried him which basically tells me he was on to the true occulted knowledge.

  13. If you have ever traveled intercontinentally, you know in doing so, you fly over the arctic. Because, of course, that arc is the shortest distance on a spherical object. There, flat-Earth debunked.

    I still listened to this episode purely for entertainment value. As a recent plus member let me say, you have a great show Greg, and I look forward to listening, especially the shows on the Hadibov material, false flag events, trauma actors, Chameleo, etc. My all-time favorites episodes are probably Dr. Judy Wood and Ed Haslem. Those new takes on old conspiracies were fascinating. Keep up the god work. 🙂

    1. Arc tic would be the center of this disc they speak of. So you could fly over it and they do as I have been told. It’s mysterious antarctica that’s the to do here.

      1. Commercial flights don’t go over the South Pole because there’s not much going on down there and there are long distances away from any airport. But flights in the Southern Hemisphere still typically arc southward when plotted on a Mercator projection. For example, see flight routes from Buenos Aires to Cape Town:;f=AEP,EZE;t=CPT;d=2016-06-23;r=2016-06-27;mc=m;q=buenos+aires+to+cape+town+direct+flight

      2. Here’s a map showing a lot of common flight routes. Notice there’s not many in the Southern Hemisphere. The bulk of the landmass and population and wealth is in the northern hemisphere. But there are a few flights in the Southern Hemisphere and they all arc southward on the Mercator projection. In the flat earth model you would expect them to still arc North or fly over the North Pole.

      3. Oh and here’s North Korea’s recently launched satellite that some speculate could be an EMP waiting to go off at any chosen moment. The satellite was launched due south and over flies the South Pole multiple times a day. It also flies over the US multiple times a day… and at the ideal altitude for maximum EMP effect…

  14. “Blink and you’ll miss it” moment, though I can’t be bothered to go back for a time stamp or precise quote, but Earth being “Realm of Existence” is likely the most important out of this.

    It takes me back to D&D 2nd Ed. Planescape material. Wherein the Flat Earth folks would be a Faction whose focus/obsession is Mapping out the Prime Material Plane of existence & Deconstruction of the current paradigm of “Scientisim”, similar in spirit to the ‘Knockers’ from Whitewolf. And if it did go on forever, the joke would be on everyone – Flat or Rounder.
    After all, isn’t the point of the Chess Board to play the game?

    Then again, I did wake-&-bake prior to this episode, so…..

  15. Thank you Greg for this show!
    I was surprised that you didn`t know Jeranism 😀 . You should get him on your show, he shares the same thoughts on religion as you do 🙂 . Also, check out Globebusters show on youtube, it`s awesome!
    Peace and love brother!

  16. I’m going to wait for Eric’s next book. After studying for 6 months and deciding the earth is round after all. Follow the money, Marty did. “The maff is the maff is the maff”!

  17. I need a few people with hiking legs and 20$. I want to do a midnight balloon launch with camera and gps. Lets find that sun at altitude. Or at least try.
    I’ll put in my camera and 60$. The high altitude balloons are @$250.
    Im close to Las Vegas, so Arizona or SoCal could work. It would be fun just trying, who knows what we’ll see.

  18. I really thought I was going to find this episode a joke, but keeping an open mind I found it quite interesting. I didn’t hear any real information that made me think the earth was flat and I still can prove to myself through math and observation that the earth is round, but I learned a few things and many of the concepts were quite interesting, to say the least.

  19. Cool episode. I’ve watched quite a bit of Marty’s videos ever since I’ve listened to the first THC interview with him. The first Marty interview and the episode with Randall Carlson, made me interested in sacred geometry which lead me to read “A Beginner’s Guide to Constructing the Universe” which was a good read. Looking forward to see which road THC takes us to next!

  20. I like Marty Leeds’ interviews and he has knowledge of Lawful and unlawful and seems to action his being accordingly.
    I am one of a growing number of souls who are questioning, not just where we are and what this place is, but all the time lines and ancient civilisations – Egyptians, Mayans, etc. It is, at this moment, not a huge leap to wonder if everything we have been told about our history including the numbers has been at least in part fictionalised.
    Can I suggest a really great lecture by Frank Chester about the heart – apologies if this has already been suggested. Frank Chester is building bodies in reality from the academicians research papers on the heart. Unlike these men and women with alphabets after their names, Frank Chester has entered their territory to understand the maths and the science and with his profound curiosity and imagination is building bodies in reality that are simply astonishing.
    Did all species slither out of the slime in a random way and chaotically survive to evolve into the astonishing biology of today? To answer that question is to be able to discern Lawful from unlawful and make a choice to live Lawfully or to live under Dominus.
    Frank Chester has, in my view, cracked it in his July 2011 – The Heart – just for example

  21. Thank you Greg for another great interview.
    To keep an open mind, to entertain all possibility and to never blindly believe what we are told about anything.
    This keeps us alert, honest and creative in my view.
    Congratulations Greg on your engagement.

    1. Pretty sure he went over that…not to mention Greg so graciously posted links to Martys website and Youtube where that is discussed. Just a few clicks and your there my friend.

    1. Interesting video. 🙂

      After a number of nations began making claims on Antarctica, an international treaty in 1959 was signed giving the nations joint sovereignty over it and preserving it for scientific exploration. So any visitation there requires compliance with the treaty (and a great deal of money and resources because staying alive in that environment is very difficult and technologically challenging. Read Shackleford’s Incredible Voyage for a riveting account of an early attempted expedition.)

      A video: Who Owns Antarctica?

  22. the ancients really did kick our ass, without leaving behind any trash dumps, we were so much more capable and balanced and knowledgable in our past, then came the ” three laws of steel” from conan the barbarian, now we get fat grading tv shows, pretending doing nothing in the real world is ok, cause we got fake money for it. incredible.

  23. This is now the best interview I have ever heard! Everything he said just brought so much together for me. I loved that he still sees science as a process not a belief – we have got totally paranoid about even thinking about anything a bit out there – even the best of us according to some of the comments above! They have really done a job on us re “conspiracy theories”! I assume the guy above has actually held the ball earth in his hand? otherwise what is he goin on about? I’ll have to listen again as there was so much in it but it was clearly said and without the usual ego of the mainstream! As Bill Hicks said Life is a Ride so why are some of us peeing our pants before we’ve even thought about buying the ticket? So glad have THC+ Thanks xx

    1. Flat Earthers seem to be pointing at the various descriptions of the earth’s shape as evidence of inconsistency and therefore confusion about Earth’s shape. But really it’s just nerds getting technically specific:

      JoeBlow: “The Earth is a sphere.”

      Nerd #1: “Well actually it’s an oblate spheroid because it bulges slightly at the middle due radial acceleration from its spin.”

      Nerd #2: “Well actually it’s slightly pear-shaped due to the arrangement of the land masses…”

      So I made reference to holding it in the hand to help people understand these various deviations from spherical are incredibly small and for most practical purposes we can consider it a sphere.

  24. You went full flat earth. Never go full flat earth.
    Just kidding. Not sold but some interesting points were made that will require more research and better epistemology.

  25. Don’t have much to say about the rest of the episode but I do have something to add about the NASA portions.

    With all due respect to the guest, he couldn’t be more wrong about NASA and the international space station. Re: “why isn’t there footage of the international space station?” And “Why aren’t there documentaries?” There’s literally tons of footage of the International Space Station. Google “International Space Station documentary” – there’s a link to one of the results below. My sister worked for NASA for about a decade in Houston .She specifically worked at mission control for the ISS.

    I visited her twice while she lived in Houston and got tours of mission control and watched live feed of the orbit with my own eyes.

    Tons of those people that worked there that I’ve met and stayed in touch with over the years now work for companies like Space X, Planetary Resources and Blue Origin(commercial space companies).

    Just saying. I seen it. Randomly know a bunch of rocket scientists. The ISS exists and is floating in orbit over, what I believe is, a round earth.

  26. Here’s an experiment anyone can do:

    Get a sextant (available on Amazon ranging in price from $50 to $200), a device used for measuring the sun’s angle with the horizon. Mariners used these for navigation to figure out what latitude they were at before GPS.

    Measure the sun’s angle with the horizon at noon. Travel due north or south a known distance. The further you go in latitude, the more accurate your calculation will be. 500 to 1000 miles as the crow flies should do it. Again measure the sun’s angle with the horizon at noon. Take the difference in your two measurements and divide this number by 360 to get the fraction of the circumference you travelled. Then take your distance traveled due North or South and divide by this fraction to get the circumference of the Earth. Regardless of where you are on Earth, you should get the same value.

    Now for another confirmation the Earth is a sphere, double your distance due North or South and take a third measurement of sun’s angle with the horizon at noon. The difference between 1st and 3rd measurements should be double the difference between 1st and 2nd measurements.

    In the flat earth model, the sun is supposed to be about 3000 miles away or something like that? So if you doubled your distance due north or south, your difference in measured angle would not double.


    Another simple way to falsify FE with your sextant:

    Take measurements of the sun’s angle 1 hr before sunset and 30 minutes before sunset. If the angle at 1 hr before is roughly double the measurement 30 minutes before, you have falsified flat earth. (I’m not sure why sunset/sunrise/night doesn’t falsify flat earth to begin with) if the Sun is supposed to be very close to the flat earth and the sun appears to set because it is traveling farther away, it would appear to “slow down” it’s descent and accelerate northward as it approaches the horizon. On the other hand in the spinning globe model it would not appear to accelerate northward and would descend towards the horizon at a consistent rate.


    Another easy way to falsify the Flat Earth model. Visit the Southern Hemisphere in the local summer. If the sun sets in the Southwest and rises in the Southeast, you have falsified flat earth. The FE model would predict all sunsets and sunrises to be in the Northwest or Northeast respectively when observed South of the Tropic of Capricorn.

    Visiting the Southern Hemisphere might be expensive. Fortunately you can visit it on Google Earth. I know… Why should we trust Google? Well with all the millions of people living in the Southern Hemisphere you’d think someone would notice if the sunset or sunrise was never where it should be.
    Here’s a screen shot I just took showing the sunrising in the Southeast from Auckland New Zealand in local summer:

    Boom! Flat Earth model falsified.

    1. Forgot one other easy way to falsify flat earth: measure the sun’s diameter at noon and again close to sunset or sunrise. If it were only 3000 miles away and appearing to set/rise because it is moving away from us, it would also appear to shrink in diameter as it moved from high noon to the horizon. If the diameter and apparent velocity is constant through the sun’s arc, it is very far away and its movement must be due to Earth rotation.

    2. One more thing: I believe the ancients understanding of the sunset / sunrise was that the sun went below the earth. (This might be a coincidence but “Set” was the Egyptian god of the underworld and the myth was that he killed the sun god. “Sun Set” is when Set kills the sun.) So the ancients believed the sun went under the world to its death and was reborn in the East. The modern FE model has the sun constantly traveling in circles above the earth rather than going below it. Presumably this deviation from the ancient model is to explain why it can be day on one part of the Earth and night on the other.

      So when FErs say they are proponents of the model that the ancients believed… Well no they really aren’t.

  27. Take the angular size of the sun at sunrise (or sunset) and compare it to its angular size at local noon (sun on your longitude line – if not overhead — meaning its as close to you as it will get that day). With accurate measurement we would be able to calculate the distance.

    But if there is no apparent difference (by eye) then we know the sun is far far far away. There is in fact no visible size difference. (If the sun was ‘about 3,000 miles’ away, or anything like it, there would be an obvious visual difference in size.) This is easy to do, using a dense neutral density filter or some such (so you don’t damage your eye) at local noon.

    The sun is far far far away. Millions of miles. Since no FE paradigm works with the sun millions of miles away, we know that FE is incorrect. Period.

    I’m an old time celestial navigator. In my book, In Search of Captain Zero (see amazon reader reviews) I describe a smuggling mission wherein I ‘dipped the light’ (google it). This also proves the earth is a curved surface. Period. I mentioned this stuff in a comment (Greg Dubay’s interview) and I know Greg read it but Greg did not bring it up here. Why? (I also offered to send a photo I took off Havana – using a very long lens — that clearly shows the curvature of the earth’s surface. Greg did not ask that I send it.)

    But the sun distance/angular size is the capper. You can do it yourself. Leeds is obviously an intelligent guy. Greg is an intelligent guy. Both of them must know of this simple test. Neither bring it up.

    Yes, NASA lies about everything, pretty much. See my video (I have several):

    NASA’s transparent lies (especially the faked Apollo missions) are a serious flaw in the PTB’s paradigm (the bogus General Relativity/Big Bang paradigm is central to their misdirection). Best way to deal with the transparencies of the lies is to mix in exposes like mine (there are plenty of others) with theories like FE. Makes us all look foolish. This is classic misdirection/NLP.

    Since both Greg and Marty Leeds surely know that the earth is not flat (again, via the sun’s unchanging size in its daily movement, among other reasons), then I have no choice but to assume they are part of the misdirection. Sorry, but this is the logical deduction….

    Before getting outraged at my accusation, please first explain how the sun could maintain its size all day if the earth is flat. (Ditto the moon, but the sun is a simpler example.)

  28. Sorry, folks, I didn’t see Hurmaneater’s post — he/she beat me to it. Bravo! I was concerned that no one else brought up the several obvious proofs related to the sun…. I am curious to see if Greg finally deals with proofs like these… We have a huge problem in the Alt Media — limited hangout/misdirection/NLP. It truly is the elephant in our room…

    1. I totally agree. Flat earth is misdirection and a disinfo psy-op and I’m sure its sudden eruption onto the Internet is the real conspiracy. About a year or so a ton of flat earth videos started showing up in my YouTube suggested videos feed even though I had no interest in flat earth nor had I watched any videos about it. I’m sure there was a concerted effort made to discredit the alernative info out there. This is the day and age where every digital communication might be scrutinized at any point in the future. Anyone who today falls for the FE trap and makes comments in support of it could have it come back to bite them in the future.

      I like Greg’s non-judgmental and agreeable style because it is very good at encouraging guests feel free to open up, but if he goes into the subject again, I really hope he will consider asking some challenging questions about flat earth because it is soooo easy to falsify the FE model.

      I’ll say this: It is a really weird feeling being on the “mainstream” side of an argument for once!

          1. I just have a WordPress blog. My last post was about the revelations of patternism structure/anti-structure logos/abyss that were generated after digesting George P. Hansen’s book, The Trickster and the paranormal. I highly recommend this book to everyone and hope Greg might consider getting him as a guest.

            I posted a link to it somewhere on the form.


            I also post a bit on the Skeptiko forum.

  29. Okay I finally forced myself to watch an entire flat earth video. I watched Marty’s Litmus Test video. A few comments:

    The clip showing the “hot spot” is showing light reflecting off of reflective surfaces (like water). Go look across a lake with the sun low in the sky and you’ll have the same effect. If the sun were only 3000 miles above the earth, it would be frying the ground directly below and the poles would be far colder because the radiation flux falls off in an inverse square relationship. In other words if you’re 2x farther away you have 1/4 the heat flux. That combined with atmospheric scattering at low angles would further reduce the heat flux at the “poles” of the FE model. There’s just no way to make the heat balance work. Think of sitting around a campfire on a cold night. There is a very narrow distance range from the fire where you’re about to melt your shoes or you’re freezing. That is due to the inverse square relationship here.

    Marty shows pictures of the sun’s rays majestically coming down at an angle and says that if the sun were really 93 million miles away they should all be parallel. The rays are parallel, but due to perspective they appear to converge just like parallel train tracks appear to converge into the distance.

    Marty makes the absurd comparison between a Foucault pendulum and a helicopter and asks why the same principle of operation seen in the Foucault Pendulum doesn’t cause a helicopter to float away in unintended directions. I don’t even know where to begin with this because it is a total non-sequitur. The helicopter blades are mechanically and aerodynamically controlled. I guess he doesn’t understand at all the principle of operation of helicopters or the Foucault pendulum?

    Regarding orbiting equipment being able to handle temperatures seen in the exosphere upwards of 3600 F: the gas up there is so near a vacuum there are hardly any gas molecules. An object in orbit radiates heat much faster than it can absorb it through connective heat transfer with the almost non existent atmosphere, so it’s equilibrium temperature is solely governed by radiation rather than convection. Imagine if you had a hair dryer but the air was so thin that it only spit out a molecule or two of air every few seconds…

    Marty says gravity doesn’t exist. Gravity is just the name we call the attractive force exerted between massive objects. It clearly exists. Now what is a “force” in the ontological sense? Who knows. We just know how to model and describe its behavior.

    The analysis of time lapse shots of the rising setting sun… Why would he rely on camera images instead of actually measuring the sun’s apparent diameter directly? I mean just walk outside, dude! Get a very dark filter or wait for a cloudy day and measure the apparent diameter at noon and 30 minutes before sunset. It will be the same. Digital images have lens distortion, atmospheric distortion, and pixel overflow (imagine camera pixels as buckets arranged in a matrix and a really bright source like the sun is like a firehose blasting the buckets. Light spills over to neighboring pixels making the washed out area appear much bigger than the actual object. As the sun sets, light intensity decreases because it passes through more atmosphere and the pixels are no longer overloaded so the sun’s apparent diameter in the image shrinks.)

    There seems to be a serious bias forming in the “alternative sphere”… Shall we call it underdog bias? Alternative bias? We’ve been lied to so much by official mainstream sources we have a tendency to assume anyone who appears to be “alternative” or fighting the mainstream must be more likely to be correct. But that is a fallacy and a bias. I am guilty of it myself sometimes. Every theory and model must stand or fall on its own merits or lack thereof regardless of whether it is presented by alternative or mainstream or official sources.

  30. Great point hurmaneater, about the inverse square heat fall off! I hadn’t thought of that one. I would only say that you’re giving Greg too much of a break. You’ve quadruple proved FE to be incorrect. If Greg doesn’t come around, and fast, how can you NOT admit he must be working for the other side? FE is no doubt a psy op. You keep supporting a psy op in the face of the evidence, you’re either really stupid or guilty. Greg is not stupid.

    Given that 9/11 was planned decades ago — possibly many — don’t you think they saw the ‘alt media’ coming and stocked it with misdirectors? You like James Corbett? Well, I have some bad news:

    (My recent posts expose Irvin and Atwill at, a coupla real pieces of work.)

    The follow up post shows how he blatantly lied in emails to me. If Corbett is dirty (and he is), should we not assume most of the alt media are as well? A sad fact…

    If I were running the PTB, Greg’s act would certainly be on the list: ‘The mellow stoner’ demographic. Pay for some good tunes, ‘Where would we beee without tee-H-C!’ etc. Get him off and running with some high-value limited hangout guests (under orders)…. This is the world we live in…. Keep up the good work.

    1. Well maybe I’m naive but I think some people who are in or flirting with FE are just totally uninformed about basic physics and nature.

      I’m an engineer and use physics every day and also an Eagle Scout who has spent a lot of time outside observing nature and the celestial bodies, so I can see how for someone who grew up in the city and hasn’t spent a ton of time outdoors or been into hands on physics and has only recently allowed their curiosity to blossom, it might be difficult to distinguish the good from bad arguments.

      There’s my benefit of the doubt.

      Also in Greg’s defense, I listened to an old episode where he was being interviewed and he was asked if there was any conspiracy theory he got tired of or found annoying and he said: Flat Earth.

      I do like some of Corbett’s stuff. Some of it puts me to sleep. Sometimes he comes off as a prick. But I’ll have to check out your link.

      Jan Irvin is a dick. I think he is half right about some things, and completely wrong in the way he interacts with people and I recently left a comment on the Irvin THC interview with my thoughts.

    2. I think the truth is that I’m probably just dumber than you think, rather than somehow connected.

      I’ve only really done two Flat Earth episodes. One very early on in this “movement” with a guy I thought made the best arguments, some of which I still think are good, and leave me a little confused. Then we have this one which is with a researcher turned friend who’s adopted this paradigm after doing his own research. Being a friend I find to be pretty intelligent and reasonable, I revisited it. This time to talk more about the implications of such a belief system, rather than “making the case” as was more the point with Eric Dubay. That’s probably all I’ll do, unless this thing advances in some significant way. (People are suggesting this guy to me, and so far he seems a bit compelling: )

      My role, in what I define as my show, is to basically be a conspiratorial talent scout, and then educate myself on THEIR perspective to help them make THEIR case for the show. I don’t adopt the opinion of every guest, and some stick with me longer than others. The goal is truth, and questioning belief systems, and sometimes that goes to far. It has to.

      So you don’t like James Corbett, because of something personal, and now that I’ve had him on, I’m suspect. I get that, but what about the CONTENT of that episode is disinformation or hurting anyone? I think it’s one of the best of recent times, and the material is pretty spot on. That’s more what I’m concerned with, not the rest of the drama.

      1. Sitting behind a screen, reading people’s words, makes it difficult to trust people. I can see Allancw’s criticism of Greg. I’ve thought the same thing. I haven’t thought it maliciously. And although I entertained the thought (very briefly) that Greg could be planted to control us, I don’t feel Greg is being false at all. Just thought I’d speak honestly. I think Greg is an honest guy and would understand where some doubt might creep in for us.

        This FE stuff is hard for me to accept. I’ve been indoctrinated by Scientism and am still trying to unravel the work that has been done. However, if we can only trust things that we see with our own eyes- then we can’t know very much – since it would be difficult to gain the proper vantage point on everything that happens in our world.

        Ultimately Greg – I appreciate your efforts. Being told you’re a great interviewer could get to your head, and now some potentially negative questions of your work will hopefully not diminish your focus. Objectivity, honesty and truthseeking are difficult, and sometimes thankless, work.

    3. Interesting work allancw. I read your open letter to James Corbett and it was very well crafted.

      You seem so intelligent that I immediately felt suspicious of you.

  31. Congrats Greg on the engagement!

    One thing about Steven Hawking. Maybe the mainstream media still thinks highly of him but other physicists have pretty much moved on. It was not to long ago that Mr. Hawking spoke at the superbowl of physicists conference if you will and stated that his previous work was wrong. There is a YouTube video out there somewhere about it.

    Flat Earth…. yeah so many things to verify BUT if true, wow! What further proof does the non-critical thinker need to see the total manipulation of our reality? On using a telescope for proof or verifying flat earth. One of the points of flat earth Eric Dubay is that the moon is a projection of some sorts. That it’s transparent to the point that you can see stars behind the moon. Especially during a crescent moon as depicted in a lot of Muslim flags. This can be verified using a telescope.

    Overall great show! I’m absolutely glad to be a subscriber because of your fearless tackling of fringe topics.

  32. New favorite show- I love Marty’s candor and matter of fact delivery. Going to listen to it again- rich with good things to investigate. Where does this fit with Crrow and moon being a hologram? Plus gotta look into Steven Hawking further- so much to ponder from this one!

    Another fine, fine podcast, Mr. Carlwood! Huge fan!!

  33. I am amazed at the response to “is it or isn’t it”. Hell Greg, I went down the rabbit hole after my first listen to Marty and i’m telling you at 3 in the a.m. after you tube, blogs, sites, lions, tigers and bears…oh my! I understand I don’t have the background in time spent reading and digesting this info. What I have is what I’ve had since I realized how important it was and is in daily life; a bit of clarity. Doesn’t sound like much you might say? Clarity has seen me thru some hairy shit. If you’ve ever experienced it, you understand. And Greg, clarity confirms my “orthodoxy” on how I see the subject. Again, love you guys. Stay strong…papa dave

  34. I’ve tried to bring up the elephant in the alt media room with a lot of people; really a lot; probably every alt media figure you ever heard of. No one, not one, has even responded. This, to me, is evidence that we indeed have a major problem.

    Greg, you state that my problem with Corbett is a ‘personal’ one? Did you read my open letter? If so, then your statement was less than honest. I could not have made it clearer that my ‘problem’ was his twenty-three repetitions (in a 25 minute, formally prepared speech to a ‘truther’ convention) of the biggest, most important, most transparent lie in the 9/11 official story. How is that personal? The lies he told in emails were an ‘add on’ at the end. How about at least fessing up to your less than truthful characterization of my Open Letter?

    Here it is again:

    1. I’m not sure why you would assume someone is a disinfo agent because they have some details about 9/11 wrong. No one knows the full story of what happened. As long as someone has been promoting 9/11 truth as well as many other alternative truths as Corbett has, I don’t think there’s a reason to in-fight with them.

    2. I agree. Why not respond? (Talking about Corbett and many others in the alt media). allancw . . . I haven’t seen enough of Corbett’s work, but is it possible these folks get so many correspondences that they can’t keep up? Specifically – with the pentagon, your point is a nuanced one re: being the real breaking point in their lie. Would the people in charge admit the lie? Would the average person seek to hold these people accountable if they admitted their crimes? Would those two factors make your points moot?

      I’m not really defending Corbett or Greg when I ask this: Is it possible that some people are being careful about what they can’t truly prove?

      Maybe my attempt at balancing your concerns is weak. I understood what you wrote about Corbett and, at this point, can’t think of any serious flaws in your argument. But I’m no master logician.

  35. I love this subject for so many reasons. I think to take it a little further there needs to be a objective interview done on Antarctica. Mabe a interview with someone credible who has tried to explore the area and been sent away by the government. Can we really prove if its a continent at the bottom of a ball or a giant ice wall surrounding our plane?

  36. We do not need to go to Antarctica to debunk FE! Since the sun does not change its apparent size (angular) in its daily movements, we KNOW it is far, far away. Since FE utterly depends on the sun being very close (3,000 or so miles), it is hereby debunked. So why, ‘Yeah but duuude, uhhhh what about Antarctica, duhhhhhh?’ How would that even prove anything!?? WAKE UP!

    Greg doesn’t even have the class to admit that ‘personal’ has nothing to do with my view on Corbett…

    Hurmanetar, you disappoint as well. With your critical thinking skills you don’t get it with Corbett? He got a ‘detail’ wrong?! Do you not understand how NLP works? Ahhh, never mind… why do I bother? This is the real question.

  37. Congratulations on the engagement. ?
    And this is one listener who won’t be leaving because of any specific beliefs or thoughts u all your guests have. I’m not aFE ‘er, but enjoyed the show especially the numbers part. I have my own numbers that seem to have been chasing me around the last few years, so I found this interesting and Will be looking this fella up. ??

  38. The Eric Dubay interview is what made me stumble on your show ~6 months ago. Since then I have become a plus member love the show! I’m FE all the way until I can find a better explanation(s), its been an enlightening adventure. Peoples reactions and recoil to this idea is interesting. What about it makes it so traumatic when the proofs are mostly simple and make so much sense and are not easily explained away? We are lied too about just about everything and vast conspiracy’s are abound but FE is just too far…….. I wonder how much is the inherent “earth shattering” result of questioning something so fundamental or if its been part of the subtle programing designed to hold back nearly anyone from questioning their reality to this level.

    Keep up the great work!

  39. Great episode, Greg. Thanks for approaching the flat earth topic again. I know it can be met with a bit of hostility. Even my closest most level headed friends have lashed out at me and called me crazy for considering it a possibility.

  40. FLAT? SPHERE? Who can know? But we DO know about NLP and the moon doggie. My problem is ‘spinning 1000 miles per hour/moving around the sun in a year at 66,600 mph.’ I do math – trig – all day long at my job. I’ve done that math. And gravity – they keep it this great spooky mystery… hmm. My take is that it should not become some kind of ultimatum. But I personally know that I’ve been lied to about so much in my life of 60 years. And I must continue to look at this beautiful, terrible world with the wide open eyes of a child and marvel at the wonder and the horror. And keep breathing in and out and seeking more and more knowledge-to-understanding-to-wisdom. And let love grow, and hate fade away. and find as many answers to my many questions as possible. Peace to us all.

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