A.T.L. Carver | Meme Magic: Pepe, Trump, & The Cult of Kek

Show Notes


Join host Greg Carlwood of The Higherside Chats podcast as he talks meme magick, Pepe the Frog, and Trump with guest, ATL Carver.

We have spent plenty of time in past episodes exploring the potential influence of both magick and the immortal, archetypal beings it can conjure up. And although many of us can see there’s something there, the line between otherworldly influence and potential coincidence often blurs too much to be sure what’s what. As much as we might want to see things as black and white- it does seem increasingly obvious that we’re living in a world of gray.

So when we hear a story such as The Council of Nine, and realize that in the “oh so strange year of 1947”- prominent, influential members of the upper crust were experiencing ritual contact with beings that claimed to be ancient Egyptian gods, poised to work their will through these elite liaisons- we should probably pay attention. And when someone makes the case that, in the words of today’s  guest “We live in a world where a group of internet misfits meme-magicked a celebrity madman into the White House with the help of an ancient Egyptian deity”, wee should definitely pay attention.
Today’s guest, ATL Carver, is a thoughtful observer of mental phenomena, student of esoteric philosophy and author of the most prominent piece on today’s strange subject “The Truth About Pepe the Frog & The Cult of Kek”, as well as his first book on the power of personal magic called “You’re Imagining Things”.
2:37 To unravel the tangled web of totality required for understanding meme-magick’s role in the election of Trump, one must start from the beginning by defining exactly what a meme is and how an image can be used to more fully define a truth.
5:15 Diving into the Pepe saga itself, ATL Carver explains the origins of the cartoon, from the artist Matt Furie to 4chan’s co-opting and manipulation of the image dating as far back as 2008. They also specifically discuss 4chan’s role, including relevant characteristics of the community, the anonymity it offers, the cataloging of posts, and the almighty dubs.
11:20 ATL Carver details how one of the boldest examples of dubs synchronicity relates to Pepe the Frog and the ancient Egyptian deity of chaos known as, Kek. They continue by discussing the parallels between Kek, a symbol of darkness and the unknown, and the archetype of Lucifer, the light-bringer and trickster.
21:15 After describing how the efforts of the 4chan community began manifesting into reality, ATL Carver explains the significance of Hillary Clinton’s collapse on 9/11.
28:42 With the mainstream media acting as a branch of the Clinton camp, and their combined efforts to push the narrative that the Trump campaign represents an alt-right, Nazi, white nationalist agenda, Greg and ATL Carver discuss the use of the deity Kek, and the failed attempts to misrepresent Trump and his supporters by labeling them as racist, sexist, and xenophobic.
33:35 After examining some of the interactions of the 4chan community with this entity, ATL Carver details the personality of Kek and provides a few examples of encounters with this deity.
50:15 Greg and ATL Carver revisit the Kek and Pepe meme, by discussing another fascinating synchronicity found in a fan made Pokemon game called Pokemon Chaos.
58:18 Although the elite’s use and implementation of magick can be a bit disturbing, the fact remains, magick is a tool for self empowerment. Unfortunately, the other side to this coin is the personal responsibility that accompanies this empowerment. Greg and ATL Carver explore this topic and examine whether we are in a position to understand and use magick effectively.
1:06:10 Chaos magick is all about perspective and definition. Greg and ATL Carver consider pivotal moments in retrospect where magick may have been at work. They also discuss the importance of questioning things and Hollywood’s agenda to distort and appropriate magick.
1:11:20 When you develop a magical perspective, your perception of reality changes in many ways. While some say this reality can be illusionary or even holographic in nature- it is certainly safe to say that reality appears to be much more flexible in nature where magick is involved.
1:13:50 ATL Carver explains whether Trump has any insight into the power of language, and if he implored it during the campaign.
1:20:00 Greg and ATL Carver continue discussing the mechanics of magick and contacting entities, by examining the cycle that includes entity contact and interaction leading to deep layers of  self-realization of the subconscious. They also touch on the show Westworld and it’s demonstration of Gnosticism.
1:25:50 With gender, sexuality and feminism playing major roles in this year’s election, Greg and ATL Carver explore Kek’s influence and how it relates to modern conservatism of 4chan.
1:29:42 ATL Carver gives his best advice for a magick novice to get started.
Want more ATL Carver? Keep up-to date with the newest Pepe news or find him on Twitter. And if you’re looking to enter the realm of magick, check out his book “You’re Imagining Things”.
Want to hear more THC? Become a plus member and gain access to the additional hour as well as the THC forums! If you want to stay connected to The Higherside Chats, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, check out our YouTube channel, find us on Reddit, or review us on iTunes. Thanks for the support, and until next time.

PLUS Content

58 Responses

  1. I’m convinced Dr. Steve Pieczenik was correct when his stated the Clintons initiated a civilian coup and several within intelligence agencies and the military sprung a counter coup.

    Trump is the front man, but don’t expect him to be autonomous. Jared Fogle may have been the mouth piece for Subway, but he certainly wasn’t running anything.

  2. Huh? memes, dubs, posts, numbers? I’m going to make some warm milk and watch Lawerence Welk cause about the time I think…”I’ve about got this shit figured out” the rabbit hole goes deeper. I’m gratefully lost in cyberspace here Greg. I’m also not sure if this show was good, but it was good for me. Thanks again brother.

  3. The thing that made my knee jerk was that statement that the only mental faculty that diminishes with age is imagination. Can we get three sources for that report? What was said about the schools killing imagination may have been true to an extent, but then I was lucky, I had learning disorders. 🙂 I thank Goddess/God that I was such a misfit.

    I think any diminution of imagination is learned, and not so much age related. Thinking we know something is the best way to slap any category of live thought or imagination down. There are ways to ditch such knowing in order to restore our available imaginative powers. Though, it can be tough when we believe we actually know something. These knowings are such cherished attributes of our personalities, our psychological minds, but they are actually imaginings. LOL We use up our imaginative powers by locking them to our own bullshit stories, thinking, “now this is some real shit!”

    If we do a really honest audit of each of our knowings, can they rise above the threshold of belief? This sort of happened in my life, actually without much in the way of intention. It might have been easy for me, as I have long embraced mystery and not knowing with a good level of comfort. Again, it could go all the way back to my public school experience. Flunking pretty much every subject by way of ADHD and dyslexia, not reading; school for that little kid was like being in jail for those hours every day. Fellow students, and teachers alike, shamed and ridiculed that little kid. He had no clue about out-of-body-experiences, but looking back, there was a lot of it. In a shamanic culture, he might have been taken out of that nightmare.

    But, looking back, what a blessing nonetheless. You want more imagination? Just look honestly at what you think you know, and see if it isn’t just imagination that’s been improperly filed.

    I know only that I know nothing. Do I need magic, I mean any more than what is the natural background? Nope; because I have this thing called satisfaction, which depends on nothing in what’s seemingly happening. But maybe it’s because I was born in 1947 (I was hoping to hear more about that). This old body hit the world scene four and a half months before Roswell, and five months before the National Security Act was signed by Truman. Was I spawned by aliens (or spooks)? It’s a mystery.

      1. Well, the old man was just tangentially spooky, a navy code guy. He was privy to enough to get involved with the OSS, but pretty much job related. His work stemmed from the broken, pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese code, where he had learned to type on a Japanese typewriter, copying the newly broken code, and was one of few with such skills. Throughout the war he was at different shore billets/receiver sites, listening and typing. When the war ended, he was posted to Alaska to listen to someone else, where after 18 years of sitting on his ass, his circulation failed, and he got medical’d out, but not before I was hatched at Bethesda Naval.

        I would have to say that he wasn’t so deeply into the spooky world, and went on to be a TV repairman in the LA burbs. I went on to be peripherally spooky too, snooping after foreign radar and telemetry transmissions, sometimes working along side guys from the Company, thinly disguised as sailors during special runs on my old diesel sub. I was not a stellar military man and so was never recruited by said company. So I got to go on to live many years as a happy hippie. I have been greatly blessed.

        It is my present view that we should all be happy. For those who disagree, there is little I might do. 🙂


  4. Hey Greg. This episode is great, sounds so weird hearing all these terms from my internet heyday.
    really enjoyed this episode, listening for a second time now. As I recently started practicing sigils and reading lots into magic and esoterica of all kinds, its super relevent to my current interests. Also, I’ve not refreshed the page in a while so don’t know if anyone else has mentioned this, but just to let you know the ‘kek’ does come from World of Warcraft but its not an easter egg, there are two main factions in the game and both speak separate in-game languages when you type, and ‘Kek’ is how ‘Lol’ appears to members of the opposite faction to confuse the speech(typed) of the rival factions.

    Cheers from a mattress on the floor in the lounge of my friend!

  5. I must add that I’ve just learned YHVH is ‘form created form destroyed’ and that is PEPE ‘Point Emerging Probably Entering’ which seems to be a double yes, as opposed to a form created form destroyed – but in this case it is magic to make something sure…
    I would love to hear a panel with magicians from yours truly (gotta do something to help) along with Frater Xavier, Gordon White, GianPaolo DiCocco (who predicted Trump’s victory with astrology, and his assassination is a possibility)… Not sure what to make of all of this, but that’s why I suggest a round table with the magicians of our age – along with ATL Carver (just ordered his book) (and he said one of my last names as I said that) – hm – I feel that we are all manipulated like little tummy bacteria in our bodies, but we are the bacteria in a much larger body…

    And I update this to say you are both talking about the idea of us being ‘vessels’ in a ‘much larger world’…

  6. Very good episode. Thanks so much, Greg. I love the concept of what happened on the 4chan site. I love the idea of the collective and that everyone influences that collective. However, there are weak areas in that kind of mental channelling of the collective. There are computer programs being used in the public space where the military covertly does counter-intelligence on the population, programs such as intrepid while enables one person to have multiple personalities or accounts being used simultaneously, making the thread seem to be a majority collective sentiments when it is only one or two accounts conversing with each other and slamming the same poster. So this collective group think could indeed be easily influenced. Now I say that with only the basic knowledge of this type of communication mode of what is presented here today on this interview. It would be good to try and list where the actual practice of this collective has weak areas that can indeed by exploited. intrepid:
    I believe in the magic. I did my own type of magic for this election, a ritual created by me using my own lifestyle make-up to do ether-work. I am fearful of magic that is collective. This type of magic can easily be subverted. It is all about intent. If the intent of the collective is not your own personal intent, do not add to it, do not add to something that does not come from yourself. IOW, If you don’t want it or believe in it, don’t do it.

    1. “I am fearful of magic that is collective. This type of magic can easily be subverted. It is all about intent.”

      Funny thing is, most of what goes on in the World as we know it that is related to “Us” seems to be collective magick. Some call is consciousness effects, but same same.

  7. Very intriguing discussion! Also, fellow, higher-siders, very much enjoy and learn from your comments! Thank you!

    Greg – I’m glad that you twice took a moment to clarify your stance re Trump. I am very glad that Hillary did not win but do not find Trump hopeful. The entire system is controlled. It’s larger than any individual. Besides, if Trump is an agent of chaos (the trump card) that’s the controllers’ favorite mechanism: “out of chaos, order,” so gotta create chaos in order to get their “problem-reaction-solution.” Hopefully, the chaos will also allow for some human alternatives, as well.

    It might be that Trump was given the election by the same group that Joseph P Farrell describes as Level One in the coup d’état of 911 but if that’s true then we’re dealing with the original Nazis not just the wannabe Nazis! I’m going to have to correlate with mbulg’s comment re Dr. Steve Pieczenik’s theory. I hadn’t heard that.

    Note that The Economist puts Trump atop The World (link below).

    Also, not to be missed: a Japanese Trump commercial:

    And, just ’cause i’m into K-Pop, CLC(씨엘씨) – Pepe:

    love all-y’all!

  8. Man, you nailed it at the end there. You put into words so eloquently what I want to exclaim! Recently even, one of my best friends whom I first heard the term “mystery schools” from years and years ago, whom I traveled extensively with to over 12 countries together in underdeveloped nations, whom in 2008 were pointing out the “Hope” and “Change” absurdity (to the Philosophically minded), and when Osama was killed we were running around like madmen through the streets screaming “The War Is Over!”!!!

    And now he’s reciting headlines, identity politwix slogans, up in arms/emotional contortion to Hilldog taking the can, and more passionate (polarized) than ever.

    But thank you Greg,

    sorry for the rant…

    1. Oh no worries, I totally get it. People are getting aggressively passionate about their political ideologies in a strange new way. It’s one of the things that’s bothering me most to be honest.

      1. People’s greatest fears are about losing a control they never had to start with. Could be the most cherished illusion of all, eh?

        We have to leave room for mystery.

        Anyone who has surfed and gotten caught in the soup enough times knows what to do.

        We are all in the soup now.

  9. Don’t know if what I am about to say is worth saying.

    This meme may be an indicator of a sigil that was efficacious in changing the path we appeared to be on; Trump has an astrological chart indicating unpredictability too. It would seem he is going to, at the very least, upset the apple cart and it was supposed to be in the favor of the average citizen. So far, the guy has shown he will do nothing he promised, which, to me, makes the Trump supporters look as foolish as those folks that supported Obama. He’s put similar Goldman Sachs types in his cabinet, which he claims he wouldn’t do. He’s also not pushing to prosecute Hillary. Other than this guys bluster and his use of social media he is the same old shit.

    And on this issue of Globalism somehow being a liberal tendency . . . how does anyone purporting this view explain the continuity between neocon presidents Bush and the neoliberal Clintons and Obama? As an example, NAFTA was initiated by Bush Sr, but brought to life by Clinton. I am perplexed because I’ve also heard distinctions between Obama and Bush Jr. that actually make Bush seem almost angelic. I don’t get it.

    1. Good call. I bought the coolaid twice, Obama and then Rudd at home here in Oz around the same time, and I really went deep on t, so when I saw it for the shitshow it was, I said “Fool me twice, shame on me!” and pulled right out of it.” Clinton was worse for the rest of the Word. Trump will be worse for The USA at home. So I am gland and sad all at once.

      Try no to get Liberal, ( and liberal) confused with Democrat and Republican. Fatal misstep. Same goes here in OZ. Our two parties are so close to centre now that they pat each others back all the way up.
      Interestingly, The ex GoldmanSachs head and leader of our nominally conservative crew in power at the moment has been quietly pivoting right the fuck away from Globalism, as fast as possible, (while saying exactly the opposite! 🙂 )….. perhaps they got the memo…. or they listen to THC and read Runesoup. 😉

      1. I’ve already begun work on an audio sigil, thanks to your and Carver for that – looking forward to RuneSoup’s classes coming up in 2017. The year of the star. Tzaddi.

        Greg. I hope you aren’t overwhelmed at the information, I should say – something IS developing here- the old currents – this has to do with Stars, this coming year, our manipulation of reality, the pendulum swinging, and the notion that ‘when the stars are right’ – and how you said about ‘the stars’ (second listen today – as you said it – and you probably noticed (maybe?) my intense Parsons/Tool sync – heavy – but to finish up the thought – you must connect what you said about the stars, and then the Crowley quote, and of course the sync Levenda makes in the Dark Lord. Hail Horus, the Crowned and Conquering Child! Hail Ma’at and the feathers and Justice. Kek be praised as Azathoth and otherwise in both male and female form – this is the year when the stars are ready… Prepare Yourself, All.

        It is happening.

        1. It’s kind of always crunch time, no?, but, this time really seems crunchier than most.

          I just can’t get over how many people are dying. It’s like they payed for the ride, went over the first drop and went, “Fuck no!” and jumped off again. If didn’t know better….. Oh well, ‘Interesting times’ and l that good prophetic Chinese stuff! 😉

  10. Hi Greg, great podcast! I wanted to point out that there is a Frog God card in the Illuminati card game in case that hasn’t been mentioned.

    Text reads: “The idols are both frightening and silly, and no one knows why the Masters keep them around… You may interfere with a privileged attack, on either side. No other players may interfere unless they use other special cards.”

    Anyway, I wonder if Kek has any sort of relation to the verses in Revelation that speak of evil spirits that look like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon.

  11. You blew my mind with this one. This was so unexpected. Anyway, the day after the elections I have gone into a huge healing with my jaws. The right side of my face had every molar in it hurting like hell. I was clinching my jaws with the election like never before. This was crazy. I try to walk on the 3rd or 5th side of most of anything I see, so I don’t pay much attention. I see things here and there. I spot a headline. I overhear the conversation. It is uncanny how I see and hear what I need to see and hear. So I am working today and my friend is messaging me on FB. I pay no attention but I glance at what she wrote. I see a new episode on THC so I turn it on while I work… and I pause. Sweet something, this is funny and sad at the same time. ha,ha For your entertainment this is what she wrote:
    So get this. Donald trump will be 70 years, 7 months and 7 days on his inauguration on January 20. In the movie the sorcerers apprentice, Merlin claimed to be of the 777th degree of sorcery. Vry powerful number in numerology. I did the 10 month calendar on January (too complicated to get into it guys but this woman runs her life by it now) and it falls on april fools day… april 1. Yeah we sure are the fools.
    But that would also make HIM the fool card in the tarot.
    number 1 card
    the first of april.
    the number 1..

  12. There is also a five pointed star if you slice an apple in half…
    I thought this chap was quite lightweight tbh and after checking his website I see no reason to change my opinion. I did find the episode interesting though as it highlighted for me how some people grab hold of an idea and take it to the nth degree and start seeing correspondences and syncs where there are no more than in any other part of existence.
    The 777 number relates to the Seal of Babalon, the Warratah Blossom which has 7 points, Babalon the Whore has 7 veils (relates to the descent of Inanna and the shedding of 7 items) and I think in Crowleys formulation it also relates to the 7 planets.
    A peaceful 2017 to everyone…how likely is that?!! ;0)

  13. Great interview. Many good points. Clearly expected to win, and there are many stories of her involvement with witchcraft. Am guessing she was blindsided by a more powerful force on Trump’s side. Some clues given here.

  14. Liked the 2nd half of the show better than the first, especially the discussion of synchronicity and symbolism. I think
    A.T.L Carver is politically naive at best when he posits the Trump will be an improvement over Hillary (Trump’s golfing buddies
    include Clinton, Bloomberg and Giuliani). Trump does offer a panacea of sorts to those who felt angry over Obama, and that is his function,
    to release anger. The truth is these guys are all robber barons, made guys who who consistently skim off the top. My guess is that they are going to to raid the Social Security trust fund in a major way.

    David Seaman stated that Trump would reveal his true colors if once elected he would go forward with an indictment of Hillary. The verdict is in “The Clintons have suffered enough and there will be no prosecution”.

  15. Great show.
    Personally, I see the possibility for a more ordinary psy-op in the fact Hillary fainted on 9/11. I wonder if it was designed to maximize the trauma of her supporters when she unexpectedly lost through subconscious associations. 9/11-Hillary-Collapse-Disaster.
    Speaking of memes, this saga produced my absolute favorite one this entire election.
    The original Simpsons frame was Grandpa with the headline “Old Man Yells At Cloud”

  16. Great show as per usual, resonates with me as my stepfather told me in confidence that he was big into contacting entities with occult practices in the 70’s he was part of a new age group looking for answers outside of the religous dogma he was indoctrinated with as a child. To cut a long story short, he told me as a child not to meddle with any of this due to some bizzare experiences which led to a fatal incident (his name was john) with one member of the group who went very deep over many years to the point of contacting the upper echelon, this came after some very bizzare-experiences I had as a child which stopped when I was about 9 or 10 years old.

    Ever since heeding such a warning I have always been very cautious of magick and occultism linked rituals to contatcing false entities portraying self-improvement, after listening to this I am intrigued though and cautious at the same time the KEK thing = mind-blown moment.

    on Trump: as positive as I felt that the wind of change was upon us post election, again my mind was laced with caution, in many ways he could be the pied piper for the masses who want good from him, willingly following his lead to the edge of the cliff, with his recent cabinet appointments this belief solidified but I hope and pray I am wrong and he tackles on the mantle that was ripped from JFK.

    The sigil magick is very interesting also as it has been used for good and bad throughout history, the swastika being prime example of a strong image that was utilised by buddhist monks and asian cultures then hijacked by Adolf Hitler. Which if history is not to be believed Adolf started off with good intentions and as time developed with his ego it morphed into something much more sinister and evil, strangely he was huge into the occult and historic practices, I wonder if he managed to contact some serious players that lay behind the spiritual curtain.

    A very thought provoking episode and can only say thanks once again, peace and love for 2017, enough of my mind dump, hope it makes sense 🙂

    1. Somehow I got to where I am and stayed innocent of all kinds of negative occultism. At least I think so. I have backed away instinctively from churches that raved on about demons and such. I have not wanted “powers” since my twenties, and even prayed to have my natural clairvoyant abilities checked back, as they seemed a block to my spiritual path, taking quiet from me. The desires probably appealed to the egoic aspects within my younger self, while reading Castaneda, and tripping balls. But that was over forty years ago. The song of the ancient East drew me away from that I could say.

      I can say this: in many ways, and at many times, something has made it way clear that there are something like guardian angels operating. Something has brought me through so many close brushes with the reaper, that I could not call it chance.

      I will listen to stuff like this, but will not invest. I will keep my own heart’s counsel. Mine is a simple life, loved to the fullest.

  17. Fascinating stuff! I wasn’t aware of most of this.

    One synchronicity that wasn’t mentioned:

    I recall at an early primary debate when Trump was standing there getting peeved at the nonsense coming out of little Marco Rubio that Alex Jones commented: He looks like a big “Golden Toad”. And several times afterwards Jones referred to Trump as “The Golden Toad”. Later on he explained that this wasn’t an insult to Trump as Jones’ own family calls Jones “The Toad” as a term of endearment and because of his big head and froggy voice. Jones undoubtedly played a significant role in getting Trump elected so how interesting that Jones’ family would call him “The Toad” and that Jones would find Trump’s appearance under pressure to resemble a frog and call him “The Golden Toad.”

    Here’s where as far as I know AJ first said Trump looks like a “giant golden toad”

  18. Awesome show, so different from many others 🙂 ! I don`t know what to think about all this but loved it 😀 .
    I find myself liking all the conspiracy talk about Trump, who he is, whos backing him, what he could do, Nazzis etc. and I`m not even an american 😀 . Wishful thinking.. but then again – collective mind can do great things, maybe if we all had that wishful thinking things would get better. Yeah, but it didn`t work with Obama, did it.. 😀

  19. A T L, you brought up the ‘meme’ of good luck. you know what that sigil is? The swastika. It’s every where. I learned that from Sylvie’ in her survivors series. All good stuff. Peace.

  20. This is easily my most listened to show, think I’ve listened to this one 4 times. I don’t even buy into the content being described nor do I care for Trump. This is just a goddamn entertaining show.

  21. I have slowly been making my way through the THC Plus back-catalogue. This particular call is probably my favourite so far. Hard to think of any other which was this insightful, well-spirited, and thought-provoking. Well done to both host and guest.

    It has been almost two years since this interview, and even longer since the rise (return?) of Kek which precipitated it. Today on 4ch the Pepe meme remains strong, but rarely do I see any serious discussion of Kek or Meme Magick, especially in comparison to the wild and exciting times of 2016.

    Have meme magicians lost faith in Kek? Was the surge in interest circa 2016 really just a fad a passing fad? Will we see people return to Kekistan as we approach the 2020 US election? Will Kek smile upon those who only try to summon his power for the purpose of memes related to federal politics, or will Kek decide to teach some important lessons?

    I can only hope that Greg has ATL Carver back on the show to discuss these questions and more.

    In the meantime I plan to promote this call on my Youtube channel. This interview is almost two years old and yet it is STILL full of information which nobody else seems to be talking about.

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